conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2024-09-14 04:38 pm

I am so not a fan of The Ethicist

My 78-year-old mother has moderate dementia and suffers from mood swings, depression, anxiety, agitation and disturbed sleep. One of her doctors recommended a low-dosage CBD/THC gummy to alleviate these problems. She takes one daily and, combined with other therapies, now experiences more stable moods and better sleep.

The issue is my mother’s conviction that marijuana is for drug addicts and criminals, never mind that medical marijuana is legal in our state. She is so vehemently opposed to marijuana use that she disapproved when my dying sister used marijuana years ago for pain relief from inflammatory breast cancer. I have to lie to her about the ingredients in the gummies, which I casually refer to as ‘‘multivitamins.’’ Is it wrong to give my mother a drug that she would never have voluntarily taken on her own? — Name Withheld


From the Ethicist:

You think your mother’s attitude toward cannabis is irrational. I agree. Generations of government propaganda have doubtless left a mark. But the fact that your mother’s degree of hostility to the stuff is unwarranted doesn’t settle the matter.

Here are a couple of issues to take into account. One is — no surprise — the extent of her dementia, because it affects her ability to understand what you’re telling her about these gummies. From what you say, she would be perfectly capable of understanding that the gummies contain chemicals extracted from cannabis plants, one of which is responsible for psychoactive effects she regards with disapproval. And long before her current condition, you evidently weren’t able to reason with her about the possible medical benefits of THC. In general, we shouldn’t lie to people about the drugs we’re giving them, and your mother would want to know what’s in those gummies. Mild dementia wouldn’t justify denying her that information. But the more serious her dementia is, the more you have to treat her not as someone whose rational capacities must be addressed but as someone whose care is entrusted to you.

Which brings us to a second issue. When we’re acting in the interests of someone who is no longer capable of making reasonable decisions, we may have to bear in mind not just what we think is best for them but what we know they would have thought was best for them. A person who was keeping kosher before she developed dementia shouldn’t be fed bacon, unawares, because her trustee doesn’t believe in Jewish dietary laws. Even if you judge that your mother has passed the point where she can make decisions, you will still have to decide how central her longstanding hostility to cannabis was to her sense of who she was. And you will have to weigh this against the contribution of these gummies to her welfare. Weighing these issues properly involves having a detailed understanding of your mother’s situation; I hope spelling out the issues helps you to do so.

Link
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2024-09-14 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I think a better analogy might have been, "Your mother has dementia. Prior to the dementia making her unable to make decisions for herself, she was a staunch antivaxer. Do you get her vaccinated for COVID?"
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2024-09-15 03:36 am (UTC)(link)
That makes sense. I'm not sure that there's a good analogy. :-/
jadelennox: Senora Sabasa Garcia, by Goya (Default)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2024-09-16 06:06 pm (UTC)(link)

"There's a stem cell treatment that would improve her quality of life, but she's a staunch anti-choicer and believes stem cell treatments are all evil."

bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2024-09-16 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's a much better one. Thanks.
castiron: cartoony sketch of owl (Default)

[personal profile] castiron 2024-09-14 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
It's more like if the drug was an opioid and the mother was rabidly against opioid use and considered her dying daughter a drug addict for using morphine to ease the pain of her final days, but now the mother has dementia and is in severe pain.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2024-09-15 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that one resonates better with me.
serriadh: (Default)

[personal profile] serriadh 2024-09-16 08:33 am (UTC)(link)
I think that's a good analogy. A non-food analogy would be to ask LW to consider if her mother is at the stage of dementia where (for instance) caregivers might tell her lies in other situations. I know that for some people in late dementia, their caregivers won't correct them if they think a deceased relative might visit. ('When's John coming?' 'John's been dead for 20 years...') The patient isn't able to retain the information anyway (so forgets any 'visit' fairly immediately, but will ask continuously) and it becomes distressing for both patient and caregiver to give the 'correct' answer every time. Some people might feel being vague about the 'medicine' you're giving is like this type of lie - comforting for the patient and they are not really capable of dealing with the issues rationally. Other people might feel lying about medication crosses a line. (Like others, I'd prefer to say 'this is a tablet your doctor has prescribed' rather than 'this is a multivitamin' - especially if the patient is happy with the idea of medicine generally)
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2024-09-14 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
The analogy was so bizarre. For someone keeping kosher, eating bacon isn't going to improve quality of life! Also doctors aren't going to suggest bacon! Argh.

The issue of lying to someone with dementia for their own benefit -- something vaguely relevant to my life right now, dealing with an increasingly cognitively confused parent who is firmly refusing help -- is fraught, and has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Judaism.

I like [personal profile] bikergeek's analogy better.
azurelunatic: Hacker-Kitty (aka Yellface) snuggling with Azz. (Hacker-Kitty)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2024-09-15 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
An actual quality of life vs. keeping kosher thing that came up in my circles:

Observant Jew; extremely elderly cat who would only eat her kibble if it was doused in bacon grease.

As I understand it (as a lay observer), as with fast days where you are prohibited from fasting if you have a medical condition that would harm you if you tried it, you can break the prohibitions on which foods you should not eat in the interests of saving a life.

Kitty got bacon grease; human ate bacon for the purpose of preserving the cat's life.
(This friend was eventually diagnosed with celiac, and at that point took the stance that now she knew what G-d had specifically forbidden her to eat, and she might as well enjoy the things that she was not medically forbidden from.)
jadelennox: Judeo-Christian pancake party. Judaism is practice based; Christianity is faith-based. (From cat and girl) (religion: judeo christianity)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2024-09-16 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)

Technically the orthodox halacha on that would be that the cat food is not human food and kashrut doesn't apply, so if she brings in bacon grease from a bacon-eating friend and uses different utensils, it's fine. (But your lay observations on food restrictions and health are correct.)

Also I love your friend's talmud ("the stance that now she knew what G-d had specifically forbidden her to eat"), much win, very Jewish, 18/10, would endorse.

jadelennox: Judeo-Christian pancake party. Judaism is practice based; Christianity is faith-based. (From cat and girl) (religion: judeo christianity)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2024-09-16 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)

The most hardline rabbi on the planet would say "if the gelatin is actually necessary for her health, then give it to her, otherwise, don't" because pekuach nefesh has been the law for more than 2000 years. That's why the analogy is so bad. In fact, if the LW had, as context, said their mother was an observant Jew, then it would be a much better analogy! Although in that case, the answer should still be "ask your mother's rabbi."

redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)

[personal profile] redbird 2024-09-14 09:24 pm (UTC)(link)
A more relevant food analogy would be, suppose a long-time vegetarian couldn't get enough iron from other foods or from supplements, only from meat. Would it be ethical to pretend that a beef burger was a vegetarian imitation?

Also, the LW isn't just lying about what drug they're giving their mother--they're pretending it's not any sort of drug, just a multivitamin. Somehow that feels worse than if the LW told their mother that the gummies were "a new anti-anxiety drug, modern science is so wonderful."
green_grrl: (Default)

[personal profile] green_grrl 2024-09-15 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)
—if the LW told their mother that the gummies were "a new anti-anxiety drug, modern science is so wonderful."

That’s what I was wondering. Just tell her the dummy is what the doctor recommended as a sleep aid.
topaz_eyes: (blue cat's eye)

[personal profile] topaz_eyes 2024-09-14 11:01 pm (UTC)(link)
There are 2 competing ethics issues here:

1) Is mom actually being harmed by taking the marijuana gummy? - The evidence suggests no she is not being harmed, and in fact it helps her significantly.

2) Would mom suffer harm if she knew she was taking a marijuana gummy? - The evidence suggests yes, because of her past extreme disapproval she would suffer significant moral harm by if she knew she was taking a marijuana gummy. She would feel betrayed by LW and her doctors, which would lead to trust issues. And that could be very frightening for someone with dementia, not to be able to trust their caregivers; especially as the dementia progresses and they can't remember the reason why, just that they can't trust them.

Since LW has to lie to mom about it, imho that suggests mom still has enough mental capacity to know and understand what she's taking. Imho LW should talk to her doctors to see if there's anything mom could take instead, that works as well as the gummy.
minoanmiss: Minoan lady watching the Thera eruption (Lady and Eruption)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2024-09-14 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
This is not the first time I've said "waht the FUCK" while reading The Ethicist. *agrees with everyone's criticisms*

Also, IIRC, isn't CBD isolated because it is NOT the psychoactive part?
ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2024-09-15 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
The mom's taking gummies with both.

That said, "taking medicine derived from cannabinoids" has a different vibe than "getting high on marijuana" (just like opioid medication vs smoking opium). I wonder if the mom is still able to be reasoned with, if "scientists have extracted the medicinally valuable compounds" would help.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2024-09-15 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
The more the ratio of THC to CBD skews to low THC/high CBD, the less high anyone taking it is going to feel. (And if you manage to get yourself too high for your comfort, taking something that's nearly pure CBD can help with the discomfort.)

With this situation, the actual ethical question I would have liked The Ethicist to bring up is: is this medication for the benefit of Mom and her quality of life, or for the benefit of her caregiver(s) and not having to deal with Mom's mood swings and sleep disturbances. I suspect the answer is probably both, because low quality sleep contributes to mood swings and general exacerbation of miscellaneous symptoms in general, but also this smacks uncomfortably of dosing psychiatric patients into compliance. But also also, dementia is terrible and does LW have the respite care they almost certainly need.
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Default)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2024-09-15 01:24 am (UTC)(link)
You deserve whatever the Ethicist got paid.
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2024-09-15 01:52 am (UTC)(link)
And the final thing about dementia -- it is incurable at the moment, degenerative, and fatal. (Not just that someone without dementia would be able to fight off certain infections better, but eventually the dementia patient stops taking nutrition and water.) So we make different medical decisions about someone with dementia than someone without a fatal and degenerative diagnosis. And it's sometimes hard for someone who is doing daily caregiving to assess where their loved one is on the slow slide into complete incapacity, because you see them every day and maybe you don't realize that they've stopped smiling until someone with fresh perspective comes in and tells you that no, it's severe now.

(My estranged father died of dementia; my mother was his caregiver until the end.)
laurajv: Holmes & Watson's car is as cool as Batman's (Default)

[personal profile] laurajv 2024-09-15 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
Most of my siblings live in the same town as my mother, so they see her a few times a week. I live 7 hours away, and I drive down about every 3 months and stay with her at her house for a few days.

Part of my job is to keep a food & drink diary of those days and evaluate how Mom is doing vs how she was doing last time I saw her. This is part of how we keep track of slow slides that my siblings can't see. I kind of hate it, but it works. :(
azurelunatic: a sad ginger & white cat, face pressed on floor. Animated caption: Not even ten dead mice can fix THIS! (10 dead mice)

[personal profile] azurelunatic 2024-09-15 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that sounds pretty effectively agonizing!
jadelennox: Grey' s Anatomy: Bailey, Cristina, and Dr. Dixon hugging dysfunctionally (grey's anatomy: hug)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2024-09-16 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)

I'm sorry and I hate this for you.

ysobel: (Default)

[personal profile] ysobel 2024-09-17 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
is this medication for the benefit of Mom and her quality of life, or for the benefit of her caregiver(s)

Yessss this is important
purlewe: (Default)

[personal profile] purlewe 2024-09-15 02:39 am (UTC)(link)
I read a book last year about a woman whose mother had dementia. Her mother, a medical doctor who was the top in her field, knew every medication that was known to help with dementia (even tho she was in denial about her dementia) Any time any of her own doctors recommended a drug she recognized the name of and knew why it would be prescribed she suddenly would become fully capable of her faculties and argue with her docs on WHY SHE WOULD NOT TAKE THE DRUG. Finally when her mother became quite uncontrollable in any other situation the doc suggested to the daughter the meds he had been trying to prescribe with the caveat that this was the one time it was ok to lie to the mother. To simply tell her they were a multivitamin. The mom took them eagerly saying that a multivitamin was all she needed. When she went into a memory care nursing home the nurses there told the daughter that it was a common thing to tell their patients it was a multivitamin bc many of them would not take their daily meds. That as long as someone what prescribing and they were administering they would do what the patient needed most, even if it was a small lie.
I think that in this case LW would be fine continuing the story of a multivitamin if it means that their mother was kept in a stable situation. I don't think it is unethical bc I don't think that the parent has the faculties in which to control their health anymore. If this means they are taking something they need but don't understand the need is greater than the understanding.
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2024-09-15 03:13 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah based on my experience with my grandmother and great-grandmother, it sounds like LW's mother is pretty far along - she is taking pills that she doesn't remember being prescribed; the doctors are comfortable prescribing without her consent. Of course it's always hard to get people to take pills they don't remember being prescribed, especially when that person knows they're feeling off and their brain isn't working right - a lot of dementia patients get paranoid that the pills are what is making them sick (a reasonable conclusion if you don't remember where you are or why you're being given pills but strangers are trying to force them on you!)

If I thought LW's mom was at a point where she could still comprehend and discuss the difference between pot and CBD/THC extract and what benefits the pills are giving her with a doctor, I think there's a reasonable chance she'd be more ok with it than LW thinks. But if we're at the point where the "it's a multivitamin" lie works, we're probably at the point where she'd have to have that discussion again every time she administered the pills, even if it worked the first time. At some point, lying to dementia patients becomes palliative care.