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minoanmiss ([personal profile] minoanmiss) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2020-12-15 11:03 am

Dear Prudence: Two For One on the Whole Man Disposal Service

The juxtaposition of these two letters really struck me. Warning: both are infuriating.

Help! My Wife Needs to Stop Treating This Toy Like It’s Our Baby.

I’m a man in my 30s and have been married to my wife for six years. During that time, we have had a very painful journey in trying to have a child. Our first daughter was stillborn and our second lived for only six hours before also passing away. My wife then had a miscarriage during the third pregnancy. She decided she wanted to stop trying to have a biological child and explore other options someday.

This was last year, and since then she’s developed a bizarre habit that worries me. We’re fans of a sci-fi TV show and my wife’s sister gave her a realistic plush toy as a birthday gift. Since then, my wife has slept with it every night. She never slept with a stuffed animal before. She doesn’t bring it in public or around anyone else, so it’s not embarrassing in that way—but I just think it’s childish and weird.

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I’ve brought it up a few times and she insists that for some reason she can’t even articulate that it brings her comfort and is a “baby that she’ll never have to bury.” After asking her to put it away yet again, she got mad and slept in our guest room (with the toy). I waited until she left for work the next day and then threw it in the trash. She ended up going through our garbage shed that night to get it back and was furious and crying.

How can I get her to see that this is inappropriate for a 29-year-old adult woman and that she needs to find a different and more healthy way to grieve? I know she is in pain—I am too—but this is dumb and unreasonable.


A: It sounds to me like your wife was perfectly able to articulate what this little toy means to her—it’s small, cute, easy to cuddle, and can’t suffer or die. This woman has gone through labor twice, only to lose both babies on the other side of it, suffered a subsequent miscarriage, and now she sleeps with a plush toy at night. There’s nothing dumb or inappropriate about that. It’s just a stuffed animal. It makes her feel a little better.

Throwing it in the trash because you found this sign of comfort embarrassing was a truly ghastly, superfluously cruel thing to do, and your wife has every reason to be furious with you. Apologize to her as quickly as you can, and don’t throw away any more of her things, especially not harmless creature comforts. “I know she is in pain” is a full sentence; stop appending “but it’s stupid to take comfort in a little gift from a sibling, so I’m throwing it away the next time you’re at work” to it. I hope this is an out-of-character moment of coldness for you, and not an indicator of your general approach to your wife’s suffering.



My husband wants me to give birth overseas in the middle of a pandemic. Should I seriously consider it? His sister’s wedding is in July, and I am supposed to visit in May with our 3-year-old and stay until after the wedding. By then I will be past 36 weeks and unable to fly back, so I want to cancel my trip altogether. He feels like I’m being unfair, as his family does not get to see our children often. His mother’s feelings mean everything to him and he is worried I will break her heart if I do not go.

His solution was giving birth there. Under different circumstances I would consider it because his family has missed out on the births of our other two children, but during this pandemic, I feel like my hesitance is justified. We live in a low COVID area—less than 1,400 total cases versus their 350,000. Please help.


A: You should not be considering your husband’s request! Do not entertain it for a moment, do not allow it to cross the threshold of possibility, do not tell him you’ll “think about it.” It would be a wildly unreasonable request even without the pandemic—”Hey, do you want to fly across the country in your third trimester and then stay in my parents’ guest room for two months, and then give birth in front of my entire family? Anything less would break my mother’s heart, and as you know, her needs are just a step ahead of yours and the unborn child you’re carrying on my list of priorities.” In the present context, it’s absolutely unhinged. If your husband truly thinks you’re being “unfair” by not wanting to fly to a higher-risk country a few weeks before your due date and waiting for your water to break while couch-surfing, he has a deeply idiosyncratic definition of fairness. This is a truly deranged request, and you should put your foot down. Don’t be “hesitant”—this is a nonstarter.

By the way, there’s nothing at all unusual about keeping in-laws/grandparents/extended family out of the delivery room; childbirth is famously challenging, exhausting, and intimate, and it’s completely natural to want to minimize the number of spectators, even if you love them. Your in-laws didn’t “miss out” on your first two deliveries. They were nonessential to the process. Cancel the trip, get support from your own friends and family if your husband tries to wear you down, and stay home.
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[personal profile] watersword 2020-12-15 04:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Can these jackasses marry each other and, as Samuel Butler said of the Carlyles, make only two people miserable instead of four?
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[personal profile] julian 2020-12-15 04:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Like. If the first woman was cuddling with the toy in public, or cuddling with it *instead* of her husband, I could see his freak-out. And I suspect he does feel she's getting more comfort from it than from him, but can't quite articulate that. (Or can, but not to Pru.)

If so: *say* that. To her, even. Talk about your marriage. With your, you know, wife.

But nonetheless, *let her grieve* in a way that works for her.

(Also, as a member of the "is (way) over 20 and has stuffed animals" brigade, I would note, unless they're costing the earth, or dominating your life somehow, stuffed animals are perfectly fine. They're cuddly and don't hurt anyone.)
Edited (I'm 47, but don't need to say that in the subject line) 2020-12-15 16:43 (UTC)
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2020-12-15 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, throwing away someone's property without their consent is a major no-no.

It may be that she's getting more comfort from the toy than from her husband...or it may just be that the husband thinks that stuffies are "childish" or "inappropriate" for anyone over some arbitrary age way below that where one is nominally considered an adult. I've never understood that. So you're a grownup and you cuddle/sleep with a stuffed animal, so what.
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[personal profile] lilysea 2020-12-15 05:48 pm (UTC)(link)
or it may just be that the husband thinks that stuffies are "childish" or "inappropriate" for anyone over some arbitrary age way below that where one is nominally considered an adult. I've never understood that. So you're a grownup and you cuddle/sleep with a stuffed animal, so what

which is such an ABLEIST belief,

given how many people with

Anxiety
Autism
PTSD
etc etc

get comfort from soft toys...
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2020-12-15 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Also a good point.
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[personal profile] gingicat 2020-12-15 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, throwing away someone's property without their consent is a major no-no.

Absolutely, and yet my family and I need to make sure we articulate it over and over again to a dear one who was abused as a child, and who sometimes throws away their own things in a feeling of "I don't deserve this."
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[personal profile] welcomingsong 2020-12-15 07:54 pm (UTC)(link)
And I suspect he does feel she's getting more comfort from it than from him, but can't quite articulate that.

Can’t imagine why she would be getting more comfort from a stuffie than from her husband. I mean, he’s clearly very comforting and considerate of her feelings.
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[personal profile] gingicat 2020-12-15 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
This.
bikergeek: cartoon bald guy with a half-smile (Default)

[personal profile] bikergeek 2020-12-15 06:02 pm (UTC)(link)
With the second letter, I have to wonder whether the hidden agenda isn't to get the kid citizenship in the father's country, so the dad can take the kid out of the country in event of a messy divorce...a divorce that he's already planning.

Yeah, it's kinda way-out there, but I've heard of this happening.
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[personal profile] bikergeek 2020-12-16 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
Hooray for having similarly weird minds! *smooch*

But yeah, why is this guy pushing so hard (pardon the pun) for his wife to have the baby in another country? There's something horribly "off" about this whole thing. I don't buy the stated reason of wanting the extended family in Elbonia (what else do you call a fictitious unnamed country?) to be involved in the birth; typically for in-hospital births nearly *anywhere* only the father is allowed in the delivery room. So what's the real reason?

For all we know, Mom is not going to win any Mother of the Year awards and Dad is trying to think about how he can backstop the kid's physical safety if things get really bad.
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[personal profile] rosefox 2020-12-17 05:56 am (UTC)(link)
Assuming the country with 350,000 cases is the U.S., if he's a U.S. citizen, his child will have U.S. citizenship no matter where they're born. Something is still very weird about this, but I don't think it's a passport issue.
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[personal profile] heavenscalyx 2020-12-15 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Pru doesn't even bring up the fact that pregnant people are high-risk for comorbidity and mortality with COVID (in part because pregnancy alters clotting behavior in the body and so does COVID).

Yeet both these dudes to the curb.
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[personal profile] purlewe 2020-12-15 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
it is very hard to find an OBGYN when you are in the last 4-6 weeks of pregnancy who will deliver a child for you. Bc they want to know the way the pregnancy has progressed and the type of care you have had. FINDING one is hard, finding one in another country? Probably harder. This is totally a no go for me. and I like the idea of letting the 2 dudebros marry each other to make more people less miserable.
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[personal profile] sporky_rat 2020-12-15 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)

It's almost impossible to find one when the OB-GYN has a sudden health issue, can't be there for the last half of the last trimester and is trying to find a sub.

(My sister's OB-GYN got hit by a car while bicycling, broke an collarbone, a leg, and a pelvis bone. He couldn't get anyone to take her while he was getting everything healed up. Finally managed to get the head of the department to do it.)

Nevermind halfway across the world.

frenzy: (Default)

[personal profile] frenzy 2020-12-15 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
how terrible of a human being do you have to be to be like "clearly, my partner is really hurting. their grief is manifesting in peculiar ways... better THROW OUT THIS THING I DONT LIKE"
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[personal profile] sporky_rat 2020-12-15 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)

.....Brent did throw out something that was making me incredibly sick that I took comfort from. He also made sure to have something as similar as possible that wouldn't make me sick to hand.

Dude. Let the lady have her small comfort critter.

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[personal profile] topaz_eyes 2020-12-15 10:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Holy shit. Re LW1, his wife suffered three consecutive losses in five years, that's a lot of grief to bear. I have to wonder how much he'd actually been there for her, for her to prefer a plushie over him for comfort. And then he wonders why she can't tell him--buddy, your letter makes it crystal clear.

Re LW2, even under different circumstances it's not a good idea either, just in case anything happens.
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[personal profile] sara 2020-12-16 03:36 am (UTC)(link)
What a pair of human failures.
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[personal profile] likeaduck 2020-12-16 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
1. Cuddling Baby Yoda is a perfectly fine way to grieve, what the fuck?

2. What? How are you going to find a provider there? What countries are we talking about and would you have health coverage in the destination one? How is this even an idea both of you are taking seriously?
Edited 2020-12-16 04:35 (UTC)
conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2020-12-16 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
1. One of those two people is behaving in an inappropriately and unreasonably childish way. It's not the person who has a stuffed animal.

2. Your husband's mother's feelings mean the world to him? And what are you, chopped liver?
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[personal profile] jadelennox 2020-12-16 06:00 am (UTC)(link)
LW1 is obviously wrong wrong wrong, yet I hold open the possibility that grief has made him into this kind of asshole. He's suffered the losses as well -- and yes, I understand that the gestating parent is going to grieve two stillbirths and a miscarriage differently than a non-gestating parent, but they've both lost two children and a pregnancy. Sometimes people are incredibly cruel to one another over shared grief, because it makes us small. We shrink in on ourselves. Grief is the most narcissistic feeling I've ever felt, and it's overwhelming.

So I can absolutely see the potential that LW1, in his grief, is driven round the bend by his wife's coping strategies.

That doesn't make him any less wrong, or what he's doing any less harmful, or the advice to course correct any less necessary. All it does is give me some sense of empathy with how he might be feeling. There's no reason to think a grieving father is a monster (despite horrible actions).
rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (Default)

[personal profile] rosefox 2020-12-17 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
This was my thought too. "How dare she take comfort from that stuffed toy when nothing is comforting me at all?" is not an unreasonable way to feel.

But the defensiveness over it, to the point of asking Prudie not even "was I wrong" but "how can I get her to see I was right", is a problem.