conuly: (Default)
conuly ([personal profile] conuly) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2025-06-13 03:24 am

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Dear Meghan: Our 11-year-old daughter is not motivated by personal hygiene. She will shower when reminded to, but she does not wash her hair effectively (I still have to wash it for her sometimes to make sure it gets clean). She is in puberty and is starting to get pimples on her face, but she will not wash her face at night unless I basically walk her into the bathroom and do it with her. When she brushes her teeth in the morning, she still has morning breath afterward, so clearly is not doing an effective job.

I am at a loss. We have worked with her and, frankly, nagged her for years, and I’m just tired of it. Is this developmentally appropriate? We do not believe she is neurodivergent, and she’s a great kid — smart, social and involved in a lot of activities. I don’t understand this refusal to do the basics of effective personal hygiene. The approach we’ve been taking is clearly not working, so I would love some advice. Thank you!

— Nagging Not Working


Nagging Not Working: Personal hygiene is a sticky issue in these in-between years. Your daughter is no longer a young girl, but she’s not quite a teen yet. Hormones, changes in her body and social pressures all take center stage at this age, and three things come to mind when I read this letter. First, parents need to understand the development stage of their child. Second, I am not sure that neurodivergence is off the table. And third, you need to find a new style of communication with her, stat.

Developmentally, your daughter is experiencing puberty in her body, but her mind may still be immature. In her book, “The Crucial Years,” psychologist Sheryl Gonzalez Ziegler says: “Children in the earlier years of middle school aren’t equipped for puberty. Their bodies may be maturing faster, but their brains are not. … This means that kids under the age of twelve aren’t ready to understand or process many of the feelings and situations their changing bodies might lead to.”

Essentially I am wondering, despite the nagging and helping, does your daughter actually understand what is happening in her body? She needs guidance and support, beginning with flipping through a book (choose one that matches your family’s values) with her, detailing what puberty is and isn’t. This isn’t a moment of shame, “See, this is why you have more zits and your hair is oily!” Rather, it’s a moment to say: “Hey, everyone goes through this, and here are some ideas for how to take care of your body. Let’s figure it out so it works for you.”

I know that there is much talk about the autism spectrum these days, but it is worth mentioning that girls go un- and underdiagnosed, often well into adulthood, because of how well they mask (which is the term used for coping to look “neurotypical” in social settings and even with family). It isn’t that people with autism don’t “care” about hygiene, it’s that their sensory system is sometimes overwhelmed, clouding how well a task has been completed or even completed at all. Some people hate the feeling of sudsy hair, or the toothpaste is too minty. And some people simply get stuck in their own minds and don’t attend to needs right in front of them — which is maddening until you understand that this is not a willpower issue.

Finally, I don’t know whether your standards of cleanliness are, in fact, appropriate for your daughter. Check with your pediatrician to see whether your expectations are in line with typical hygiene behavior in an 11-year-old. If your expectations are reasonable, use the Ross Greene Collaborative and Proactive Solutions problem-solving method to find solutions that work for both parties (there are books, a website and trained facilitators). Hygiene is important, but your daughter’s voice must be centered here, and the Greene model allows for both parent and child to voice their point of view. When the parent is controlling a child’s body as much as you are, this problem-solving model may feel slow and frustrating at first, but there’s a bigger goal: We want our children to find reliance on and independence with their own bodies. You may have a vision of cleaner hair and fresh breath (understandably), but let’s instead focus on helping your daughter grow skills to care for her own body. There are numerous resources available in the Greene approach, and don’t be afraid to hire someone trained in the framework to help you.

In the meantime, immediately find and praise what your daughter is doing well. She may feel quite ashamed by your fussing over her body, so establish a deeper connection by creating situations where your daughter shines (especially when it comes to self-care). Whether it is her outfit or hair style, find what is working and truly see her, while ignoring the bad breath and skin (for now). Get the support you need, start with her doctor and stay loving. Good luck.

Link
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 08:25 am (UTC)(link)
I've seen some dermatologists suggest that over-washing can contribute to acne.

Over washing =

skin dries out =

body desperately generates more oil
AND dry flaky skin blocks pores
movingfinger: (Default)

[personal profile] movingfinger 2025-06-13 04:20 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, over-washing and drying the skin out make it worse. Older dermatologists tend to prescribe drying products and those exacerbate the inflammation!
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 08:26 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad the advice column mentioned sensory issues, that was my first thought
viggorlijah: Klee (Default)

[personal profile] viggorlijah 2025-06-13 09:25 am (UTC)(link)
it can be really small things - the taste of the brand of toothbrush, not liking wet hair afterwards - that can be fixed. Going through them with curiousity and a sense of experimenting like sample sizes of different products, getting them to make a bathtime playlist with a bluetooth speaker so they have a sense of minimum time that's fun etc.

Shame works short term but has such bad long term effects.

Also the nighttime face washing - making it a shared activity to chill out and do a five-step-beauty thing would turn that into a special time as well. I realised recently that my kid's reluctance to regularly brush her teeth on her own is also wanting me to check in and be with her about something she finds physically uncomfortable.
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[personal profile] gremdark 2025-06-13 11:26 am (UTC)(link)
Ooh, that's great advice. I help care for a young member of my partner's family who has significant sensory issues, and when he balks at doing something necessary for his wellbeing, our conversations about it often go best when I talk about similar sensory issues of my own.

Saying "I hear you, and have felt similarly in x situation, but here's why it's important to do this. Can we try a different way?" has a sandwiching effect that makes him feel heard when he's uncomfortable.

And yeah, sharing the activity where possible definitely helps. When my young friend was very small, he didn't like getting his hair wet. Our deal when I gave him baths was that I'd let him wash my hair under the faucet first. He'd laugh and I'd have wet hair all evening, but no tears!
dabbleswithpoisons: (Default)

[personal profile] dabbleswithpoisons 2025-06-13 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I really struggled with brushing my teeth until I discovered that unflavoured toothpaste and mouthwash exist. It went much better after that.
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2025-06-13 12:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Q: LW, if you had a son instead of a daughter, would you even ask whether this is developmentally appropriate? I think you would not. 11yo boys are widely agreed to be stinky little monkeys with a few glowing exceptions. Hormones are doing a lot of things to your kid right now, but "magically make it clear what hygiene will achieve results she wants" is not one of them.
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[personal profile] lauradi7dw 2025-06-13 03:11 pm (UTC)(link)
My daughter was in elementary school in the 1990s. When she was in the 5th grade, the genders were separated for the puberty talk. The teacher remarked ruefully that the boys were given a free sample size of deodorant (presumably donated by the company or local drugstore) but the girls were not, and teacher felt that it was a mistake not to give it to the girls.
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm still indignant about the primary school teacher who asked if I ever showered when I was showering two, three, four, or five times PER DAY. (Summer, hot weather, no airconditioning at home, very hot fibreboard/timber house with no insulation.)

What I should have said was "Yes, but by the time I walk here in hot weather in a polyester uniform I might as well have not bothered."
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder how much of the deoderant thing is

a) most spray on deoderants (Axe/Lynx/Rexona) smell REVOLTING

b) if you shave your underarms, deoderant stings like hell on shaved underarms - not just the day you shaved either, but for the whole week
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-06-13 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
At the risk of TMI:

when I shave my underarms I immediately put cocoa butter or shea butter on them. That heals them up enough to withstand deoderant.
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh, I'd never heard of that!

Mind you, it's near impossible to find real unadulterated cocoa butter or shea butter in Australia

all the stuff labelled cocoa butter or shea butter

is mostly artificial synthetic nonsense and fragrance, plus a TINY percentage of actual cocoa butter or shea butter.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-06-15 01:03 am (UTC)(link)
Coconut oil? Modulo allergies of course
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-15 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the fact that I do 100% of my shopping online since COVID started probably doesn't help

although almost all Australian stores aimed at migrants are aimed

at people with Indian heritage

or Pakistani heritage,

or Italian heritage,

or Greek heritage,

or Chinese heritage,

or Vietnamese heritage,

it's only really been quite recently that Australia has had significant migration from sub-saharan Africa, mainly refugees from Côte d'Ivoire/Ivory coast, so there are ***very*** few stores in Australia aimed at migrants with African heritage. There might be some in Sydney? but I've never seen such a store in Perth.
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[personal profile] katiedid717 2025-06-13 09:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Regarding the point about deodorant stinging, I wonder if this is a stick versus spray issue? Because I have never had my deodorant sting after shaving my armpits, but I've also always used stick deodorant and have never used aerosol
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-14 04:09 am (UTC)(link)
For me, all deodorant stings if I shave my armpits, which I solved by

a) no longer shaving my armpits; and also

b) no longer wearing deodorant. (I decided that washing my armpits with soap was enough.)

But, I have an allergist-diagnosed fragrance allergy,

and also really sensitive skin that stings even from moisturisers targeted at people with very sensitive skin,

so it is possible that my experience is not universal.
katiedid717: (Default)

[personal profile] katiedid717 2025-06-14 04:14 am (UTC)(link)
Ahh, yeah, the allergies could definitely be a major factor there! One of my sisters has allergy-induced eczema and a typical allergy to lanolin which, it turns out, was an inactive ingredient in the ointment she was prescribed for her eczema (before the allergy was known); there are quite a few mundane things that will make her skin feel tightnand itchy
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-14 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, among other things,

my skin HATES alcohol (which is in a lot of deodorants and moisturisers)

and REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hates benzoates (which are used as a preservative in a lot of deodorants, moisturisers, body washes, soaps...)

Most "sensitive skin products" are off limits to me because they use benzoates as a preservative.
katiedid717: (Default)

[personal profile] katiedid717 2025-06-14 09:01 am (UTC)(link)
That sounds absolutely miserable!
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[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2025-06-13 01:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I love it that the columnist focused on the goal of helping the girl learn how to take care of herself, whatever that means and however slowly the process goes, instead of the mom controlling everything.
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[personal profile] minoanmiss 2025-06-13 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I appreciated that a lot, yeah.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2025-06-13 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
It isn’t that people with autism don’t “care” about hygiene, it’s that their sensory system is sometimes overwhelmed,

Thanks for speaking for all of us, I guess, but also some of us genuinely don’t care. If I haven’t been doing anything that day that made me stinky or visibly dirty, no, I don’t care about wasting my time that night to wash my face simply because this is How Things Are Supposed To Be Done. My face will cope just fine with me not wasting those minutes, and there’s plenty of other things I could spend minutes doing that are enjoyable. Similarly, I keep my hair short enough that I can run my fingers through it a few times rather than having to pull out a comb, not because a comb is distressing on a sensory level, but because it’s a time-wasting chore and I don’t care enough to put in that much effort anymore.

I’m also not going to start conversations by asking “how are you?” as a rote call-and-response. That’s Just How Things Are Done is not a sufficient reason for me for pretty much anything. (It turns out some of us love rules in general, some of us are only interested in rules if there’s a clear logical basis that passes the sniff test, some of us aren’t interested in rules except our own, and all points in between, because autistic people are a huge and diverse community.) If I say, “How are you?” I actually am asking a genuine question and looking for a genuine answer, and if I don’t care how that person is doing, I’m not going to waste both our time by asking a fake question to get an inauthentic answer and then reverse the procedure. Sure, maybe it’s only 20 seconds, but how many times am I going to have to give up those 20 seconds over the course of my life? Hours’ or days’ worth of complete nonsense simply because neurotypicals enjoy fake call-and-response routines and have deemed it necessary for everyone to start conversations that way? No thanks.

So yeah, sometimes we actually don’t care. While it’s better than the old days of “ew gross, autistic, put it in an institution” that neurotypicals used to do, I also find the “they just can’t help themselves, the poor dears with autism, they’d be just like us if they could but they’re too overwhelmed” that allistic (non-autistic) people do to be weird and annoying. We’re not all one thing. We don’t all experience one thing. We have our own likes and dislikes, and if we’re doing something different from allistic people, it may or may not have anything to do with sensory stuff or other aspects of autism. We do have the ability to just not like things or not feel like doing them.
otter: (Default)

[personal profile] otter 2025-06-13 04:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I appreciate the time and energy you took to write this out. I'm autistic and honestly just don't care most days. I probably shower 2-3 times a week, and only wash my face as a separate thing if I'm sweaty and want to cool down. I work from home and if I stink, no one else is there to care about it.
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[personal profile] dissectionist 2025-06-14 01:37 am (UTC)(link)
Right? If it wasn’t for my partner being sensitive to smells like BO, I wouldn’t care if it was just me. I’d only clean up to go out into the world.

(Except for sick-sweat. That has a sharp, awful smell and I need it off me ASAP. Thankfully I rarely get fevers these days.)

I do know many allistics are trying to be better, and many have made a lot of improvements. But I get tired of seeing even the more progressive ones constantly revealing that they think we’re a monolith and we would 100% act exactly like them if only we could. There’s no respect for the fact that a lot of us just do things differently for a wide variety of reasons, and many of those are choices, not something forced by disability.

It makes me think of a study by allistics a few years ago about autistic people being transgender in greater numbers, and their conclusion was “autistic people don’t understand gender”. Oh my god, go fuck yourself. Stop doing research on autistic people when you’re starting from a place of believing we’re inferior and incapable of your mighty allistic understanding. (In reality, a lot of autistic people have spent more time considering and learning about gender than 99% of cishet allistics ever will. We’ve basically explored gender to the quantum level by this point, including the autistics who have decided the entire system of gender is bullshit and just opted out.)
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[personal profile] otter 2025-06-14 02:56 am (UTC)(link)
Yep yep yep
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[personal profile] neotoma 2025-06-13 05:01 pm (UTC)(link)
When I was about the kid's age, my mom would ask me if I brushed my hair frequently -- I had, but my hair texture is such that a brush is actually counterproductive and I now use a wide-toothed comb; the constant questioning did not help my relationship with my mother. I'm wondering if the products that the kid has been supplied with are just wrong for them -- either not able to cope with texture/oiliness of hair, or texture/taste wrong for the toothpaste.

Also, neurodivergent doesn't just mean autism -- ADHD makes it hard to complete daily tasks, because routines aren't.
ashbet: (Default)

[personal profile] ashbet 2025-06-13 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)
My mother used to yell at me about “looking like a haystack,” but never did any research about care for natural curls like mine, so I didn’t learn how to take proper care of my hair until I was in high school (it was clean, but bushy and frizzy, because she never bought conditioner, and I didn’t know not to brush it when it was dry!)
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[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
my parents used to say that my hair looked like "the wreck of the Hesperus"

As a child I had thick but very fine hair (eg LOTS of hairs, but those hairs were very fine/thin)

I didn't brush my hair,

my mother didn't brush my hair,

and it developed horrible tangles that were ***incredibly painful*** to untangle

which further created an aversion to hair-brushing.

The only time my hair ever got brushed as a child was when an honorary Asian Auntie at my parents church grabbed me and started very roughly brushing it, without asking permission.

I always wanted my mother to plait my hair, but she HATED having to do anything to my hair, and she would always yank on it really hard like she was really angry that I had asked for plaits, and then when I said OW

She would say "that didn't hurt!"
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[personal profile] ashbet 2025-06-13 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
That sounds horrible, I'm sorry :(

(I also have fine curly hair, and had TONS of it until my late 30's, and it tangles like crazy unless I care for it with a very specific routine.)

My mother was a brutal-yank-brusher, too.
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, hairdressers were commenting / complaining about how thick my hair was as late as when I was 43, even tho it's very fine and mostly straight (apart from a cowlick at the front)

(I stopped going to hairdressers when COVID started)
lilysea: Serious (Default)

[personal profile] lilysea 2025-06-13 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, I was washing my hair with my father's harsh anti-dandruff shampoo Selsun Blue (because it was the only shampoo in the house)

and not using conditioner (because there was no conditioner in the house)

and that definitely made my tangles much much worse

My parents were of the opinion that conditioner was a ripoff made up by advertising companies, and completely unneccessary
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[personal profile] full_metal_ox 2025-06-13 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I’m told that this happens a lot to kids with Black hair texture being raised by White caregivers who don’t know any better (it was only a few years ago that I even learned of the existence of the alphanumeric Hair Curl Scale, and how vital that is to an understanding of what a given hair texture will and won’t do.)
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[personal profile] katiedid717 2025-06-13 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I was in my early thirties when I realized that I have curly hair. My parents both had some kind of natural wave to their hair, all three of my sisters have straight hair; My brother is now bald but when we were in high school 20 years ago he had hair that would make him look like the wolfman if he went a week too long without a haircut - I'm guessing we probably have a similar natural hair texture, he just doesn't have hair anymore for us to really know!
dabbleswithpoisons: (Default)

[personal profile] dabbleswithpoisons 2025-06-13 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't even figure out that my hair actually wanted to be curly, and would be if I treated it right, rather than just a weirdly frizzy angry cloud, until I was in my late thirties! Everyone else in my family had fine wavy hair, so I was taught to take care of that kind of hair...turns out my hair likes pretty much the opposite of all of that. Different bodies do like different things!
katiedid717: (Default)

[personal profile] katiedid717 2025-06-14 04:15 am (UTC)(link)
Are you me? I was in my early 30s when I realized my hair is curly and my family members have straight hair
joyeuce: (Default)

[personal profile] joyeuce 2025-06-15 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Argh, this could nearly have been me a couple of years ago! My daughter is autistic and started hitting puberty aged 9. I did try not to shame her, but there comes a point when you run out of nice ways to say, "Darling, you stink."
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[personal profile] melannen 2025-06-16 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly as someone who was that 9-year-old, "darling, you stink, go shower" is *way* less shaming than trying to be "nice" about it.