ermingarden: medieval image of a bird with a tonsured human head and monastic hood (Default)
Ermingarden ([personal profile] ermingarden) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2022-09-26 09:34 am

Ask Damon: Should I get my anti-vax friends' baby vaccinated without telling them?

My best friend is an antivaxxer (not only covid, all the vaccines). His wife is, too. They have a 9-month-old baby and they haven’t vaccinated him. I babysit for them every other weekend. Should I take the baby to get his shots without telling them?
— Anonymous


Anonymous: My feelings on vaccinations are well-documented. But just in case you’re unfamiliar, a quick refresh:

I think I’ve reached the threshold of intellect where I’m just smart enough to know that I’m not that smart. I have some gifts and some talents, I guess. But with medical science, I trust that the PhDs and MDs who’ve spent thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn about it, and whose livelihoods are predicated on the retention and application of that knowledge, know much more about it than I’d ever know. And I’m not just talking about some faceless wall of anonymous white-coated professionals, but family and good friends. A neighbor. An ex-girlfriend. All medical doctors or science-related PhDs unanimous in their belief — no, plea — that everyone get vaccinated.

And look, I’m a Black American. My skepticism of our health-care system, based on my awareness of the profound racial disparities existing within it — historically, and presently — is justified. But, as I wrote in a New York Times essay last year, my desire to prevent more infection, sickness and death is a force greater than cynicism.

That said, I am also a parent of two small children. And if someone took them, against my will, to get vaccinated? Let’s just say that I was advised, by my editors, for legal-ish reasons, not to say what I’d do to that person.

What you’re suggesting is reckless, egregious and possibly even criminal. Forty-three states require a parent’s permission to vaccinate a child. The age where parental consent is no longer necessary depends on the state, and ranges between 15 and 18. But these laws are for teenagers who wish to get vaccinated, not adults who want to sneak their friends’ babies to the clinic.

Of course, if you believe that your friends are abusing their children, you have a responsibility to report them. But despite the fact that I do agree with you on the necessity of vaccination, and that your friends are acting dangerously, you’ve burrowed so deeply in the rabbit hole of self-righteousness that you’ve come up on the wrong side.

I was tempted to suggest that you attempt to sway them into getting vaccinated, but if an active pandemic that has killed millions of people — plus all of the social restrictions of being unvaccinated — hasn’t convinced them yet, I’m not sure what else would. Maybe an ultimatum, where you tell them you don’t feel safe around them anymore. You’d risk ending that relationship, sure. But I’d rather lose friends than commit a crime and lose my freedom.
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2022-09-26 06:12 pm (UTC)(link)
If it's a situation like [personal profile] conuly's below where the regular pediatrician is used to seeing LW, they could probably just bring them in, although you are right it would probably only work until the parents got the bill/insurance statement (but that might be months and several vaccines down the line, depending on how on the ball everyone is with paperwork.)

Ethically though? IDK, it certainly removes the "it's illegal" part of waiving the ethical question. And one vaccine in the series is still better than none.
Edited 2022-09-26 18:14 (UTC)
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Default)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-09-26 06:58 pm (UTC)(link)

Actually I'm not sure I'd say one vaccine is better than none. I am also not a doctor, but I am given to understand that working with the immune system can be pretty complex. We don't want to give the kid an allergy.

Also, there's a discussion below about how the appropriate people to decide whether or not to supercede the parents's judgement are the kind of people who work for CPS and other such governmental agencies, not a layperson like LW. I think there's a good point there.

melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2022-09-26 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)
As far as I'm aware none of the standard childhood vax series (or Covid) are dangerous to stop partway though (I know this because several of mine *were* stopped partway through after I had a mild allergic reaction; with herd immunity where it was in the 80s, stopping them was less risky than even a teeny-tiny chance of a severe reaction after a second shot. Vaccinate your kids, people, I never finished my childhood TDAP series! But also there are enough reasons a kid might start but not finish a series that I don't think they would be mandated or administered the way they are if that was risky.)

But I'm certainly not siding with LW on the ethical question! Although I think even there, if LW has paperwork from the parents saying "We trust you to make medical choices for our child" that would add a different ethical dimension. (Ethically does that obligate LW to make the decisions they know the parents would make? Or does it obligate LW to make the best choices they can with the information they have?)

Like you said, calling CPS is the Godzilla option and it's unlikely they would do anything unless there's other medical neglect, but it would probably break trust with the parents on at least the same level as getting the vaccination if not moreso, so I hesitate to suggest that.

Honestly my suggestion would be to have a serious discussion with the parents in which you say you are uncomfortable continuing to babysit unvaccinated kids, because of the risk not just to them but that they might transmit diseases to others. Maybe you'll lose the babysitting job, maybe the parents will be willing to compromise (or you will but will at least have had a chance to say your piece).
Edited 2022-09-26 19:19 (UTC)
conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2022-09-26 10:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly, I also often brought the kids to the pharmacy, lots of different pharmacies depending on what was convenient. Literally nobody *ever* questioned "Yup, we're here for the flu shot", whether they'd ever seen any of us or not except... actually, except for the mass vax event where E got her first covid shot. And even then, she was already in high school. I bet if I'd just said "Oh, yeah, I'm her mom, we just have different last names" and E had backed me up they would've gone along with it. But as her dad was right outside we just called him and he came in and gave his ID instead. (She wanted me to hold her hand while she got vaccinated instead of anybody else, because, again - all her shots, literally all of them, after infancy were with me.)

I'm not sure if other shots would've been different, it's possible they'd scrutinize more closely if it was tetanus at the pharmacy instead, but... in my experience, people just are not nearly as stringent about this as we'd perhaps like them to be.

Again, I'm not at all recommending this, and if LW did something like this they'd have to pay out of pocket to avoid insurance problems. Just as well, not having insurance is consistent with not having an ID.
Edited 2022-09-26 22:08 (UTC)