Ermingarden (
ermingarden) wrote in
agonyaunt2022-09-26 09:34 am
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Ask Damon: Should I get my anti-vax friends' baby vaccinated without telling them?
My best friend is an antivaxxer (not only covid, all the vaccines). His wife is, too. They have a 9-month-old baby and they haven’t vaccinated him. I babysit for them every other weekend. Should I take the baby to get his shots without telling them?
— Anonymous
Anonymous: My feelings on vaccinations are well-documented. But just in case you’re unfamiliar, a quick refresh:
I think I’ve reached the threshold of intellect where I’m just smart enough to know that I’m not that smart. I have some gifts and some talents, I guess. But with medical science, I trust that the PhDs and MDs who’ve spent thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn about it, and whose livelihoods are predicated on the retention and application of that knowledge, know much more about it than I’d ever know. And I’m not just talking about some faceless wall of anonymous white-coated professionals, but family and good friends. A neighbor. An ex-girlfriend. All medical doctors or science-related PhDs unanimous in their belief — no, plea — that everyone get vaccinated.
And look, I’m a Black American. My skepticism of our health-care system, based on my awareness of the profound racial disparities existing within it — historically, and presently — is justified. But, as I wrote in a New York Times essay last year, my desire to prevent more infection, sickness and death is a force greater than cynicism.
That said, I am also a parent of two small children. And if someone took them, against my will, to get vaccinated? Let’s just say that I was advised, by my editors, for legal-ish reasons, not to say what I’d do to that person.
What you’re suggesting is reckless, egregious and possibly even criminal. Forty-three states require a parent’s permission to vaccinate a child. The age where parental consent is no longer necessary depends on the state, and ranges between 15 and 18. But these laws are for teenagers who wish to get vaccinated, not adults who want to sneak their friends’ babies to the clinic.
Of course, if you believe that your friends are abusing their children, you have a responsibility to report them. But despite the fact that I do agree with you on the necessity of vaccination, and that your friends are acting dangerously, you’ve burrowed so deeply in the rabbit hole of self-righteousness that you’ve come up on the wrong side.
I was tempted to suggest that you attempt to sway them into getting vaccinated, but if an active pandemic that has killed millions of people — plus all of the social restrictions of being unvaccinated — hasn’t convinced them yet, I’m not sure what else would. Maybe an ultimatum, where you tell them you don’t feel safe around them anymore. You’d risk ending that relationship, sure. But I’d rather lose friends than commit a crime and lose my freedom.
— Anonymous
Anonymous: My feelings on vaccinations are well-documented. But just in case you’re unfamiliar, a quick refresh:
I think I’ve reached the threshold of intellect where I’m just smart enough to know that I’m not that smart. I have some gifts and some talents, I guess. But with medical science, I trust that the PhDs and MDs who’ve spent thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn about it, and whose livelihoods are predicated on the retention and application of that knowledge, know much more about it than I’d ever know. And I’m not just talking about some faceless wall of anonymous white-coated professionals, but family and good friends. A neighbor. An ex-girlfriend. All medical doctors or science-related PhDs unanimous in their belief — no, plea — that everyone get vaccinated.
And look, I’m a Black American. My skepticism of our health-care system, based on my awareness of the profound racial disparities existing within it — historically, and presently — is justified. But, as I wrote in a New York Times essay last year, my desire to prevent more infection, sickness and death is a force greater than cynicism.
That said, I am also a parent of two small children. And if someone took them, against my will, to get vaccinated? Let’s just say that I was advised, by my editors, for legal-ish reasons, not to say what I’d do to that person.
What you’re suggesting is reckless, egregious and possibly even criminal. Forty-three states require a parent’s permission to vaccinate a child. The age where parental consent is no longer necessary depends on the state, and ranges between 15 and 18. But these laws are for teenagers who wish to get vaccinated, not adults who want to sneak their friends’ babies to the clinic.
Of course, if you believe that your friends are abusing their children, you have a responsibility to report them. But despite the fact that I do agree with you on the necessity of vaccination, and that your friends are acting dangerously, you’ve burrowed so deeply in the rabbit hole of self-righteousness that you’ve come up on the wrong side.
I was tempted to suggest that you attempt to sway them into getting vaccinated, but if an active pandemic that has killed millions of people — plus all of the social restrictions of being unvaccinated — hasn’t convinced them yet, I’m not sure what else would. Maybe an ultimatum, where you tell them you don’t feel safe around them anymore. You’d risk ending that relationship, sure. But I’d rather lose friends than commit a crime and lose my freedom.
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As I said in my other comment, I think LW should play the long game.
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I am ethically not certain if this is a case where bad parenting should be corrected by someone else or if this is a bad decision parents are allowed to make, but with both law and logistics against the LW, not to mention the possibility of elements of the baby's medical history the LW may not know, I would advise against this plan.
LW, cuddle the baby and whisper "when you're 15 I'll help you emancipate yourself and get your vaccinations."
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This very issue is what makes me feel like this is a question for an ethicist, because that's what's bad about this answer, which boils down to "I am undecided whether vaccine denial constitutes abuse, but regardless, you shouldn't do it because the parents would definitely be angry."
If LW is asking for help choosing the most ethical course, then the parents' feelings aren't relevant unless they're likely to have further practical consequences. And whether denial of vaccinations constitutes abuse is very much the central issue, so ignoring it without even an attempt to consider how much danger the child might be in seems to miss the point completely.
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If LW actually has paperwork that says they can make medical decisions for the kid, they might legally get away with one vaccination (although I still think most doctors would say, "this baby is not my patient and I don't know their history so I won't vaccinate them") but then the parents will revoke the paperwork and the kid will have a very incomplete vaccine series. And of course I am not a lawyer -- I'm coming at this from my time in medical admin and reading charts.
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Ethically though? IDK, it certainly removes the "it's illegal" part of waiving the ethical question. And one vaccine in the series is still better than none.
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Actually I'm not sure I'd say one vaccine is better than none. I am also not a doctor, but I am given to understand that working with the immune system can be pretty complex. We don't want to give the kid an allergy.
Also, there's a discussion below about how the appropriate people to decide whether or not to supercede the parents's judgement are the kind of people who work for CPS and other such governmental agencies, not a layperson like LW. I think there's a good point there.
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But I'm certainly not siding with LW on the ethical question! Although I think even there, if LW has paperwork from the parents saying "We trust you to make medical choices for our child" that would add a different ethical dimension. (Ethically does that obligate LW to make the decisions they know the parents would make? Or does it obligate LW to make the best choices they can with the information they have?)
Like you said, calling CPS is the Godzilla option and it's unlikely they would do anything unless there's other medical neglect, but it would probably break trust with the parents on at least the same level as getting the vaccination if not moreso, so I hesitate to suggest that.
Honestly my suggestion would be to have a serious discussion with the parents in which you say you are uncomfortable continuing to babysit unvaccinated kids, because of the risk not just to them but that they might transmit diseases to others. Maybe you'll lose the babysitting job, maybe the parents will be willing to compromise (or you will but will at least have had a chance to say your piece).
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I'm not sure if other shots would've been different, it's possible they'd scrutinize more closely if it was tetanus at the pharmacy instead, but... in my experience, people just are not nearly as stringent about this as we'd perhaps like them to be.
Again, I'm not at all recommending this, and if LW did something like this they'd have to pay out of pocket to avoid insurance problems. Just as well, not having insurance is consistent with not having an ID.
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Surprisingly easy to do.
I took my niblings to ALL their doctor's appointments from the time my sister went back to work, including to the ER several times for asthma attacks, and if I didn't correct those people, they just kept calling me "Mom".
They don't check IDs at the door. They do like to see the insurance card, and they always *claim* they look at a photo ID, but they never actually do. They can't really mandate that anyway, much though they'd like to, because 10% of all adult Americans don't have a photo ID. Citing this fact will get you out of having to show an ID in a large number of situations where people try to claim it's required, except for the very few cases where it is legally required. (Citation: Up until the pandemic, I was one of those Americans! It is a real hassle to get an ID if you do not already have a photo ID. I had to get a passport with an affirming witness.)
And all you have to do to explain why you're making an appointment at a new practice is say "I've recently moved" or "My previous doctor moved". They don't care enough to quiz you about the details.
...not that I'm saying that LW should sneak around and sneakily get the baby vaccinated, just that this is not really a barrier.
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This was actually hilarious, because the 5 year old was grumpy as hell and answered "Who is this woman?" with "Why don't you figure it out?" but we did eventually get there.
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ahahahehee
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This is exactly why, btw, I'd wanted my *mother* to be the one to bring the kids home. But no, Jenn had left a week earlier to get back to work, and *we* had to leave then because school was starting, and Mommy had extra vacation to spend with *her* mom.
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a) enrol your kids in childcare, kindegarten, primary school, highschool
b) claim your kids as dependents on a tax return.
Having said that, I don't support LW stealth vaccinating, because if LW does stealth vaccinate and the child has a (quite rare, but nonzero) adverse reaction, the child may not get appropriate medical care in a timely manner if the parents don't know about the vaccination.
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Because Holy fuck, no! You don't get to give non-emergency medical care to small children against their parents' wishes. The government can interfere if there is a reasonable suspicion of medical abuse, but not John Q Public, which the friend definitely is.
There is certainly a case to be made about mandating vaccines, but as it currently stands, this would be illegal, possibly immoral, and certainly ill-advised.
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Isn't that how most laws and regulations about kids' safety work? That's basically what CPS does already.
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When they approach a certain level, anyway. There are reasons that calling CPS is considered a Godzilla threshhold.
I was uncomfortable with just telling LW "no", because that seemed kind of dismissive of the baby's welfare, but I think it makes sense to tell LW "The appropriate people to decide this are CPS, not you. If you think this is that negligent, call them. Otherwise keep babysitting and be a good influence."
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I would argue that it was ethical for LW to aid the teenager in circumventing their parents and accessing the abortion that they needed.
Ditto the morning-after pill/plan B.
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