green_grrl: (Default)
green_grrl ([personal profile] green_grrl) wrote in [community profile] agonyaunt2020-05-13 10:40 pm
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Traditional manners and male deference

Dear Amy: Women today have been empowered to act and speak out against sexual harassment, bullying, rape, etc. This is a major milestone.

However, over the past few years I have observed the lack of traditional manners toward women by men. I notice husbands and male partners pushing through doors before their wives and dates (instead of holding doors open). I see them seating themselves in restaurants before their dates and wives have been seated.

Along with the gains that women have made, have they also lost the benefit of traditional manners and male deference?

— Wondering

Wondering: No woman I know gives a whit about traditional manners and male deference. We DO want to be treated “nicely,” however.

For instance, it would be “nice” to make the same wage for the same work. It would also be nice not to be raped, assaulted, harassed, catcalled, bullied, objectified or fearful.

Kind and loving people (no matter the gender) demonstrate their consideration by being polite, deferential, kind and courteous toward one another. We women can seat ourselves at the table, open the door for ourselves — and are happy to hold it open for anyone else.
cereta: Snow White's hand holding a throwing snowflake, words "Not In Distress" (snowflake)

[personal profile] cereta 2020-05-14 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
OMG, are we sure this is Amy? Well, I'll take that back. She can be horrifying on gender sometimes, but she doesn't seem to have much patience for either the "but is it worth it?" brigade or the old-biddy approach to manners.

Also, am I the only one who finds being "sat" dreadfully awkward? I mean, I'm kind of physically awkward anyway, which is why I prefer to control as much of my body's movement and arrangement as possible, but ugh.
Edited 2020-05-14 14:35 (UTC)
sathari: (Brain transplant no thanks)

[personal profile] sathari 2020-05-14 04:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, am I the only one who finds being "sat" dreadfully awkward?

OMG, YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THAT! I am frankly deeply grateful to the wheeelchair-using community for giving me the words to explain why having someone else move my actual body around without my consent and out of my control is not "nice manners" but is in fact a dreadful violation of my bodily autonomy. (Also, I hate having doors held for me by strange men--- that just lets a total stranger get behind me in close proximity to me--- it makes me vulnerable, see: Schrodinger's Rapist issues. Especially if my hands are full.)

...wow, those feels were sitting around in the back of my head waiting to come out. Thank you for giving me a place to say that.
conuly: (Default)

[personal profile] conuly 2020-05-14 11:00 pm (UTC)(link)
"Well MY sainted mother would never forgive ME if I let you hold the door, so...."
ashbet: (Default)

[personal profile] ashbet 2020-05-14 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)
You're not alone, I'm a lot more likely to stumble or sit awkwardly if someone else is controlling the chair!

My poor boyfriend is (a) extremely, blessedly feminist, but (b) has it absolutely ingrained to open doors/etc., and I am 100% used to doing all of that for myself. I at least haven't hit him with a car door yet!

(We're long-distance, so we haven't had a chance to completely acclimate to each other's daily habits.)