green_grrl (
green_grrl) wrote in
agonyaunt2020-05-13 10:40 pm
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Traditional manners and male deference
Dear Amy: Women today have been empowered to act and speak out against sexual harassment, bullying, rape, etc. This is a major milestone.
However, over the past few years I have observed the lack of traditional manners toward women by men. I notice husbands and male partners pushing through doors before their wives and dates (instead of holding doors open). I see them seating themselves in restaurants before their dates and wives have been seated.
Along with the gains that women have made, have they also lost the benefit of traditional manners and male deference?
— Wondering
Wondering: No woman I know gives a whit about traditional manners and male deference. We DO want to be treated “nicely,” however.
For instance, it would be “nice” to make the same wage for the same work. It would also be nice not to be raped, assaulted, harassed, catcalled, bullied, objectified or fearful.
Kind and loving people (no matter the gender) demonstrate their consideration by being polite, deferential, kind and courteous toward one another. We women can seat ourselves at the table, open the door for ourselves — and are happy to hold it open for anyone else.
However, over the past few years I have observed the lack of traditional manners toward women by men. I notice husbands and male partners pushing through doors before their wives and dates (instead of holding doors open). I see them seating themselves in restaurants before their dates and wives have been seated.
Along with the gains that women have made, have they also lost the benefit of traditional manners and male deference?
— Wondering
Wondering: No woman I know gives a whit about traditional manners and male deference. We DO want to be treated “nicely,” however.
For instance, it would be “nice” to make the same wage for the same work. It would also be nice not to be raped, assaulted, harassed, catcalled, bullied, objectified or fearful.
Kind and loving people (no matter the gender) demonstrate their consideration by being polite, deferential, kind and courteous toward one another. We women can seat ourselves at the table, open the door for ourselves — and are happy to hold it open for anyone else.
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Also, am I the only one who finds being "sat" dreadfully awkward? I mean, I'm kind of physically awkward anyway, which is why I prefer to control as much of my body's movement and arrangement as possible, but ugh.
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OMG, YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THAT! I am frankly deeply grateful to the wheeelchair-using community for giving me the words to explain why having someone else move my actual body around without my consent and out of my control is not "nice manners" but is in fact a dreadful violation of my bodily autonomy. (Also, I hate having doors held for me by strange men--- that just lets a total stranger get behind me in close proximity to me--- it makes me vulnerable, see: Schrodinger's Rapist issues. Especially if my hands are full.)
...wow, those feels were sitting around in the back of my head waiting to come out. Thank you for giving me a place to say that.
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My poor boyfriend is (a) extremely, blessedly feminist, but (b) has it absolutely ingrained to open doors/etc., and I am 100% used to doing all of that for myself. I at least haven't hit him with a car door yet!
(We're long-distance, so we haven't had a chance to completely acclimate to each other's daily habits.)